|By Coach Wei||
|April 1, 2008 05:30 PM EDT||
I have to admit that I do not have an answer.
Why do I even care? Because I am a Java developer. Like many Java developers, I get along with Java well. Not only the language itself, but the development environments (Eclipse for example), step-by-step debugging helper, wide availability of libraries and code snippets, and the readily accessible information on almost any technical question I may have on Java via Google. Last but not least, I go to JavaOne and see 10,000 people that talk and walk just like me.
The other reason that I ponder this question is that the power of Java is a perfect fit for the areas where websites may need more than markups or scripting, such as middleware logic. PHP and Ruby etc are cool for building pages, but they are not ideal candidates for building middleware logic. Given that Java covers the "high end" of the spectrum well (where sophisticated processing is needed), wouldn't it be great to use Java all the way?
Is it Java as a programming language too difficult to use, comparing with those scripting oriented interpreted languages? Yes, this maybe the reason. But there are 5 million Java developers out there already, and millions of developers make a living by write server side Java code. A lot of websites are built by these Java developers, and somehow they choose to use PHP or Ruby instead. Why? It is even more puzzling that I have seen quite a few Enterprise Java people decided against Java - when they decided to build their web 2.0 site, they went for PHP even though they have to learn PHP.
Is it the lack of tooling? I think there are more tools for Java than, say, Ruby.
Is it the lack of frameworks? I bet there are more Java frameworks than the population in China.
OK, a lot of websites are fairly simple, mainly composed of markup pages, scripts and some lightweight logic on the server side, where PHP and Ruby are good for. Java maybe an overkill for such websites. But there are a lot of websites that are much more sophisticated than "lightweight" logic on the server side. For example, FaceBook was relatively simple initially, but now with FaceBook API and Platform, its complexity is growing. Why not use Java for such websites?
So what is missing from the Java world? What is the ideal architecture to build a website using Java?
- Option 1: JSP/Servlet with a Java Servlet engine (or even an application server): This is the dominant architecture for Enterprise web applications. But it clearly has not been appealing for building websites in comparison to PHP or Ruby;
- Option 2: JavaServer Faces: JSF is the new kid on the block. Is it going to make building websites easier? Probably not. It is designed for simplifying building form-based applications.
- Option 3: Using a Java based content management system (CMS)? I have come across many CMS systems over the last few years, and haven't been impressed by anyone of them.
|keith 11/11/07 07:27:48 PM EST|
Although some of the comments here do favour alternative to Java, I suggest that you will not find the real answers by asking a group of people who read Technical Java Articles regularly. You need to ask the people who write successful applications in these technologies. Has anyone got any good articles from say the authors of facebook where they discuss reasons for their choice of technology ?
|Sam D 11/11/07 02:42:13 AM EST|
I would like to hear some feedback from the PHP and Ruby enthusiasts on what they think of Groovy.
|the trend 11/11/07 02:40:25 AM EST|
Someone said Delphi for web?? please...
|jamesl 11/10/07 05:19:56 PM EST|
|thecancerus 11/10/07 05:02:26 PM EST|
that is the problem of all java developers.. they can see outside the walls of java... java is very power full, but for building web application it's like using sword to sew the clothes instead of using needles.
you see for building the websites php/ruby is better option as they are designed for just that unlike java which is designed for being an application programming language.
|Esteban Pacheco 11/10/07 03:30:28 PM EST|
I think you guys are missing Delphi. :)
|Paul Sundling 11/10/07 01:07:36 AM EST|
One of the big problems with this article is that it only lists 3 Java options, all of which are lacking. The answer that is clear to me is Velocity and Spring MVC. For the most part you just to learn SimpleFormController and Velocity templates, which is even more basic than PHP.
If there is a team working on the project, this will well with clear separation. For the most part, the front end developer doesn't need to know much with all the business logic on the back end side.
The hardest part is to get the initial configuration going and you can do that by using AppFuse.
|Alexei 11/09/07 08:52:15 PM EST|
Wow.. where to begin.
I think one of the key problems with Java is the sheer number of frameworks out there actually dilutes the availability of useful information for whatever path you do choose for your application. Rails is a very opinionated framework and there are clearly defined ways of doing things - this is attractive to some people. Top that off with Ruby which is a real joy to work with. I mean, seriously.. its a great language, and if you like terse, non-verbose code.. then Ruby is very appealing. This is something Java doesn't do as well.
Another reason Rails is appealing for web developers is you get so much out-of-the-box. A lot of Ajax stuff is baked right in so you dont have to go outside the framework to do things like autocompletes and basic callbacks.. this saves developers time and lets them prototype rapidly.
PHP is appealing I think for sortof similar reasons.. although its very un-opinionated.. It's a lightweight language and very quick to get stuff up and running. Although lately I've been less impressed by PHP in general.. I'm getting tired of inconsistencies in the API, wierd documentation, and buggy distributions.
Another comment I have is about what you said about these other languages being somehow fundamentally limiting when you try to do 'tough stuff'. I'd say that's true and not true at the same time. There may not be easy ways, for example, to interface directly with custom hardware in Rails.. but as soon as you start to need to do that kind of stuff, you can easily write those components in C++ (which you probably should anyway) and use the C libraries for rails to tie into your web application. They have great facilities for binding to external applications when you dont want to attempt something in script.
Anyway I'd be interested to hear your comments on this.
|Claude Coulombe 11/09/07 06:04:53 PM EST|
1) Many hosting companies doesn't provide cheap support for TOMCAT and J2EE server.
2) Many projects begin small and cheap. So it's easier to start with low cost hostings and tools. After, it's too late you are caught with your previous technological decisions.
SOLUTION : SUN should offer cheap Java based solutions to hosting companies.
|jsloan 11/09/07 02:56:28 PM EST|
Your question "So what is the ideal architecture..." has already been answered by the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_nothing_architecture Shared nothing architecture] crowd.
Perhaps you should rephrase your question to "Can you build the ideal web architecture with Java?"
|Don Babcock 11/09/07 01:26:41 PM EST|
"So what is missing from the Java world? What is the ideal architecture to build a website using Java?
Easy. ColdFusion. Since CF is JAVA under the covers it offers almost seamless transition between CF tag coding for the "easy" stuff yet if you need the power of Java it is right there at your fingertips. For example, we use JRules, a commercial Java rules engine, for business logic. Adding to the CF server was a simple as adding a folder containing the JAR files to the server classpath. Then you just use it right from the CF environment. Most of our staff are NOT java programmers but they can easily use CF because it hails from the HTML world they started in. Those of us from the Java side can just drop in our JARS and roll as well as make them available to the non-Java developers via CF components. It is a beautiful marriage from a number of perspectives.
|Jim 11/09/07 10:26:11 AM EST|
1) The purpose of the project should be a prominent factor in the choice of tools for execution. If your project ranges from a non-transactional content display system all the way to a mid-volume (or higher) commerce site, choices about programming language can be subordinated to questions of cost, design, and the expertise of available resources. The fact is that PHP, Perl, python, java, etc. etc. can all get these jobs done to the satisfaction of clients who need projects of this size and scope.
2) If your project needs to be a high-availability, fault tolerant, high-volume etc. etc., then the technical factors including language need to be more carfully evaluated for their supportability, stability, longevity, standards adherence, fault tolerance, blah, blah, blah. If your project is this big, then these choices should be made by engineers, not designers, marketers, or a couple of beleaguered staff.
If your project is of the first type, then it's true that as many have said, its just easier from start to finish to implement in php or ruby or perl because 1) they're easier to learn, 2) they have more hosting support, 3) there's more/more-accessible FOSS for small to medium sized web apps in those languages 4) using j2ee for a cms or shopping cart is like hitting a nail with a pile-driver, 5) Anyone who knows the big standard languages (C, C++, Java) can do php, but less so the other way around, 6) PROTOTYPING (which too few projects/orgs do anyway) does not need to be DOD/IEEE-certified-fault-tolerant-blah-blah and can be done faster/cheaper with LAMP
Why am i giving you all this free consulting?
|lifewithryan 11/09/07 10:21:05 AM EST|
Java is way to complicated anymore. Too many pieces being plugged in here and there, too much configuration, and then a bloated application server sitting in the middle of all that. On top of that, most of the tools used to write Java are getting more and more complicated to use. Don't even try running Eclipse, JBoss, and MySQL on your laptop unless you got 2GB of ram and nothing else running.
|Sam D 11/09/07 10:12:32 AM EST|
Based on many of these comments and references to J2EE which has been replaced by JEE current 5 and 6 which will improve upon it vastly with features such as Web Beans. It appears that amazing Java related technologies such as JBoss Seam, Groovy ( which is a dynamically typed form of Java ) and I'm even going to throw in JEE5 haven't obtained the exposure they deserve.
JBoss Seam has a tool called seam-gen which will do the same sort of deal that Rails does for Ruby you can design your db model point seam-gen at it and bang. You have all the scaffolding and pages required to do CRUD.
No I do not represent or work on those technologies mentioned but I have used them and have worked quite a bit with several dynamically typed languages in the past. Although I haven't used Ruby I have worked in large Perl and even TCL based projects. The current project I am working on uses PHP and yes these languages can let you bang some stuff out quickly but in my experience that as more and more developers come on board and the project really needs to scale things can get out of hand quickly.
As for the hosting, this is really unfortunate. I haven't had to deal with the hosting specifics myself in the past so I can't really comment. I am seeing a lot of people asking about Sun's GlassFish or the productized version Sun Java Application server now so I hope this does become better.
|john redden 11/09/07 09:59:14 AM EST|
This is a case of "be careful what you wish for, you might get it." The Holy Grail in the 1990's for OO lauguages, was reusable objects." In our middle tier and data access tier Java software we use/reuse thousands of objects. This presents a huge learning curve for new comers to Java. It is very easy to get started with PHP and Ruby. Most the of the visualization developers at our company user PHP. And I notice that the number of idioms on the web pages decreases when using PHP. Another change is that PHP5 has matured considerably.
So what did our company do? We went Caucho/Resin which compiles PHP5 into Java byte code and presents the possibility of exposing all Java view objects to the visualization developers.
Bottom Line: For newbie developer, Java is difficult to learn
|Chris 11/09/07 09:20:06 AM EST|
Java is too bloated for building small-scale and medium sized websites. There is just as much, if not more, support for PHP also. And if you're using PHP then it's simple to also use MySQL instead of Ruby, which is crap in the first place.
|Marc 11/09/07 09:17:59 AM EST|
Just like many other comments already stated: lack of good hosting! There are some, but they are rare and more expensive than php. I think this is due to the lack of a good "shared" application/servlet servers: every application typically needs its own JVM and almost its own server. On the other hand it's trivial to host many php sites on the same apache server.
Hopefully with virtualization improving constantly, we will see more cheap hosting packages that give you an independent, pre-configured, and managed virtual server.
|robert 11/09/07 08:52:35 AM EST|
I'm a Java developer, but I prefer PHP. My primary reason is that Java documentation on the web is (a) disorganized, (b) written by people with PhD's who never learned to write coherently, and (c) filled with out of date, nearly identical, yet subtly different API's. Microsoft has the game won on documentation to date, but PHP developers as a whole document things very clearly, concisely, and in language that is accessible by anyone.
|Jon Evans 11/09/07 06:45:52 AM EST|
> I bet there are more Java frameworks than the population in China.
You say that like you think it's a good thing!
|Alessandro Ronchi 11/09/07 04:04:45 AM EST|
I think one reason (not the only one) is that many developers come from web design world. PHP is much more simple to learn/use than Java: you can copy and paste a code snippet in a php file, put (not "deploy") it on your 10$/year hosting space and see it working. Learning Java is a matter of object oriented programming, something far from designing a web page and filling it with some php code snippets.
|OHo 11/09/07 04:00:36 AM EST|
same for me and I guess thousands others: availability of cheap hosting for everyone. I learned & used Java first, then had to switch because of the hosting offerings my customers typically use.
|Bozhidar Bozhanov 11/09/07 01:57:22 AM EST|
The hosting is the reason (mainly) - I'm a Java developer, and I still make php sites because of no decent Java hosting around. And if any, the prices are not attractive.
|Richard Tandoh 11/08/07 09:10:19 PM EST|
I think the fact that PHP hosting packages are ten-a-penny and cost little or nothing has a lot to do with it. Java hositng, I find, is still hard to come by and relatively costly.
|Sam D 11/08/07 08:39:01 PM EST|
Have you guys looked at JBoss Seam? If not I think it might be worth your while to do a bit of investigation on it.
Many of the great ideas will be incorporated into JEE6 as Web Beans and simplifies things significantly. It will basically collapse the communication between the web-tier and ejb-tier making the interaction a lot less cumbersome. That is a very simplified comment though, there is much much more that developers will see out of this in all phases of development. Here is the link to the JSR:
Oh and one more thing, do not rule out Groovy. Being able to mix and match Java with Groovy is pretty amazing so you have the best of both worlds without having to sacrifice. JBoss Seam already supports Groovy.
|ac 11/08/07 08:09:43 PM EST|
For me it's the hosting - if you're making a small site for fun you don't want to pay big bucks for java hosting - PHP is easier to find and a lot cheaper
|Dave J 11/08/07 07:00:34 PM EST|
I find Java too cumbersome for the front-end, but great for encapsulating business logic and objects. So, in a MVC design, I like ColdFusion for the V, Java for M, and one or the other for the C.
|John C. 11/08/07 07:14:49 AM EST|
Definitely not Java, complexity/framework overload and an obvious design-by-committee feel to it. Rails would be interesting; conventions build right in to alleviate the pain. But probable I'd choose PHP, because it just works (many major sites have proven this fact) and you do not need a PhD. to use it.
|Michael 11/08/07 05:26:29 AM EST|
I am a long-term Java guy and do much of my web stuff in Rails now. Why? The efficiency of Rails. I think I am about 5-10 times faster with Rails. You dont believe me?
Try building a little db-driven site with Rails and, say, JSF/Hibernate/Spring. You'll see.
|Johan Chouquet 11/08/07 04:05:51 AM EST|
I'm also a Java/J2EE developer.
Unfortunately, I don't have a way to manage directly what is installed on the machine that hosts my website. The inconvenient of Java is that Java needs a JVM installed of the machine to run. Of course, this is a good thing for portability, but when we don't have access to the machine, sometimes it's just impossible to install Java. So, I think that's why Java developers are going to PHP. All hosts supports PHP, but not always Java.
|VelocityWebDev 11/08/07 12:31:31 AM EST|
I don't know that it matters - a majority of the sites that are built using PHP or Ruby are quickly redesigned and redeployed. They are disposable sites. Although many use them for years, the reality is instant gratification. Too many Java developers (scripted interpreted language with c++ as it's kernel?) over think their solutions. I've seen it and done it! So I can point fingers at myself and others. For that matter, this question can be taken a step further, why not just develop in C++ or C or assembler? Because it doesn't appeal. So, I guess the real answer is, regardless of technical background and desire to make Java THE web development language - it too is not universally appealing to the masses.
|Peter Blazejewicz 11/07/07 02:30:03 PM EST|
here is where I see why Grails:
is lacking solid backend ;(.
|PHP News Desk 11/07/07 01:14:53 PM EST|
Here is a question that I have been pondering on and off for quite a while: Why do 'cool kids' choose Ruby or PHP to build websites instead of Java? I have to admit that I do not have an answer. Why do I even care? Because I am a Java developer. Like many Java developers, I get along with Java well. Not only the language itself, but the development environments (Eclipse for example), step-by-step debugging helper, wide availability of libraries and code snippets, and the readily accessible information on almost any technical question I may have on Java via Google. Last but not least, I go to JavaOne and see 10,000 people that talk and walk just like me.
SYS-CON Events announced today that Super Micro Computer, Inc., a global leader in high-performance, high-efficiency server, storage technology and green computing, will exhibit at the 17th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on November 3–5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA. Supermicro (NASDAQ: SMCI), the leading innovator in high-performance, high-efficiency server technology is a premier provider of advanced server Building Block Solutions® for Data Center, Cloud Computing, Enterprise IT, Hadoop/Big Data, HPC and Embedded Systems worldwide. Supermi...
Oct. 13, 2015 09:30 AM EDT Reads: 204
As more intelligent IoT applications shift into gear, they’re merging into the ever-increasing traffic flow of the Internet. It won’t be long before we experience bottlenecks, as IoT traffic peaks during rush hours. Organizations that are unprepared will find themselves by the side of the road unable to cross back into the fast lane. As billions of new devices begin to communicate and exchange data – will your infrastructure be scalable enough to handle this new interconnected world?
Oct. 13, 2015 08:00 AM EDT
"Matrix is an ambitious open standard and implementation that's set up to break down the fragmentation problems that exist in IP messaging and VoIP communication," explained John Woolf, Technical Evangelist at Matrix, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at @ThingsExpo, held Nov 4–6, 2014, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA.
Oct. 13, 2015 07:00 AM EDT Reads: 6,010
Nowadays, a large number of sensors and devices are connected to the network. Leading-edge IoT technologies integrate various types of sensor data to create a new value for several business decision scenarios. The transparent cloud is a model of a new IoT emergence service platform. Many service providers store and access various types of sensor data in order to create and find out new business values by integrating such data.
Oct. 13, 2015 04:00 AM EDT Reads: 684
Too often with compelling new technologies market participants become overly enamored with that attractiveness of the technology and neglect underlying business drivers. This tendency, what some call the “newest shiny object syndrome,” is understandable given that virtually all of us are heavily engaged in technology. But it is also mistaken. Without concrete business cases driving its deployment, IoT, like many other technologies before it, will fade into obscurity.
Oct. 13, 2015 03:00 AM EDT Reads: 261
There are so many tools and techniques for data analytics that even for a data scientist the choices, possible systems, and even the types of data can be daunting. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Chris Harrold, Global CTO for Big Data Solutions for EMC Corporation, will show how to perform a simple, but meaningful analysis of social sentiment data using freely available tools that take only minutes to download and install. Participants will get the download information, scripts, and complete end-to-end walkthrough of the analysis from start to finish. Participants will also be given the pract...
Oct. 13, 2015 03:00 AM EDT Reads: 409
WebRTC services have already permeated corporate communications in the form of videoconferencing solutions. However, WebRTC has the potential of going beyond and catalyzing a new class of services providing more than calls with capabilities such as mass-scale real-time media broadcasting, enriched and augmented video, person-to-machine and machine-to-machine communications. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Luis Lopez, CEO of Kurento, will introduce the technologies required for implementing these ideas and some early experiments performed in the Kurento open source software community in areas ...
Oct. 13, 2015 12:45 AM EDT Reads: 854
Electric power utilities face relentless pressure on their financial performance, and reducing distribution grid losses is one of the last untapped opportunities to meet their business goals. Combining IoT-enabled sensors and cloud-based data analytics, utilities now are able to find, quantify and reduce losses faster – and with a smaller IT footprint. Solutions exist using Internet-enabled sensors deployed temporarily at strategic locations within the distribution grid to measure actual line loads.
Oct. 13, 2015 12:00 AM EDT Reads: 276
“In the past year we've seen a lot of stabilization of WebRTC. You can now use it in production with a far greater degree of certainty. A lot of the real developments in the past year have been in things like the data channel, which will enable a whole new type of application," explained Peter Dunkley, Technical Director at Acision, in this SYS-CON.tv interview at @ThingsExpo, held Nov 4–6, 2014, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA.
Oct. 12, 2015 11:15 PM EDT Reads: 7,128
The Internet of Everything is re-shaping technology trends–moving away from “request/response” architecture to an “always-on” Streaming Web where data is in constant motion and secure, reliable communication is an absolute necessity. As more and more THINGS go online, the challenges that developers will need to address will only increase exponentially. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Todd Greene, Founder & CEO of PubNub, will explore the current state of IoT connectivity and review key trends and technology requirements that will drive the Internet of Things from hype to reality.
Oct. 12, 2015 10:15 PM EDT Reads: 317
There will be 20 billion IoT devices connected to the Internet soon. What if we could control these devices with our voice, mind, or gestures? What if we could teach these devices how to talk to each other? What if these devices could learn how to interact with us (and each other) to make our lives better? What if Jarvis was real? How can I gain these super powers? In his session at 17th Cloud Expo, Chris Matthieu, co-founder and CTO of Octoblu, will show you!
Oct. 12, 2015 08:45 PM EDT Reads: 276
Today’s connected world is moving from devices towards things, what this means is that by using increasingly low cost sensors embedded in devices we can create many new use cases. These span across use cases in cities, vehicles, home, offices, factories, retail environments, worksites, health, logistics, and health. These use cases rely on ubiquitous connectivity and generate massive amounts of data at scale. These technologies enable new business opportunities, ways to optimize and automate, along with new ways to engage with users.
Oct. 12, 2015 06:00 PM EDT Reads: 265
Through WebRTC, audio and video communications are being embedded more easily than ever into applications, helping carriers, enterprises and independent software vendors deliver greater functionality to their end users. With today’s business world increasingly focused on outcomes, users’ growing calls for ease of use, and businesses craving smarter, tighter integration, what’s the next step in delivering a richer, more immersive experience? That richer, more fully integrated experience comes about through a Communications Platform as a Service which allows for messaging, screen sharing, video...
Oct. 12, 2015 05:30 PM EDT Reads: 1,230
With major technology companies and startups seriously embracing IoT strategies, now is the perfect time to attend @ThingsExpo in Silicon Valley. Learn what is going on, contribute to the discussions, and ensure that your enterprise is as "IoT-Ready" as it can be! Internet of @ThingsExpo, taking place Nov 3-5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA, is co-located with 17th Cloud Expo and will feature technical sessions from a rock star conference faculty and the leading industry players in the world. The Internet of Things (IoT) is the most profound change in personal an...
Oct. 12, 2015 04:30 PM EDT Reads: 200
WebRTC converts the entire network into a ubiquitous communications cloud thereby connecting anytime, anywhere through any point. In his session at WebRTC Summit,, Mark Castleman, EIR at Bell Labs and Head of Future X Labs, will discuss how the transformational nature of communications is achieved through the democratizing force of WebRTC. WebRTC is doing for voice what HTML did for web content.
Oct. 12, 2015 03:00 PM EDT Reads: 1,489
SYS-CON Events announced today that Sandy Carter, IBM General Manager Cloud Ecosystem and Developers, and a Social Business Evangelist, will keynote at the 17th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on November 3–5, 2015, at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA.
Oct. 12, 2015 03:00 PM EDT Reads: 248
The Internet of Things (IoT) is growing rapidly by extending current technologies, products and networks. By 2020, Cisco estimates there will be 50 billion connected devices. Gartner has forecast revenues of over $300 billion, just to IoT suppliers. Now is the time to figure out how you’ll make money – not just create innovative products. With hundreds of new products and companies jumping into the IoT fray every month, there’s no shortage of innovation. Despite this, McKinsey/VisionMobile data shows "less than 10 percent of IoT developers are making enough to support a reasonably sized team....
Oct. 12, 2015 01:00 PM EDT Reads: 340
As a company adopts a DevOps approach to software development, what are key things that both the Dev and Ops side of the business must keep in mind to ensure effective continuous delivery? In his session at DevOps Summit, Mark Hydar, Head of DevOps, Ericsson TV Platforms, will share best practices and provide helpful tips for Ops teams to adopt an open line of communication with the development side of the house to ensure success between the two sides.
Oct. 12, 2015 01:00 PM EDT Reads: 695
The IoT market is on track to hit $7.1 trillion in 2020. The reality is that only a handful of companies are ready for this massive demand. There are a lot of barriers, paint points, traps, and hidden roadblocks. How can we deal with these issues and challenges? The paradigm has changed. Old-style ad-hoc trial-and-error ways will certainly lead you to the dead end. What is mandatory is an overarching and adaptive approach to effectively handle the rapid changes and exponential growth.
Oct. 12, 2015 12:00 PM EDT Reads: 337
Today air travel is a minefield of delays, hassles and customer disappointment. Airlines struggle to revitalize the experience. GE and M2Mi will demonstrate practical examples of how IoT solutions are helping airlines bring back personalization, reduce trip time and improve reliability. In their session at @ThingsExpo, Shyam Varan Nath, Principal Architect with GE, and Dr. Sarah Cooper, M2Mi's VP Business Development and Engineering, will explore the IoT cloud-based platform technologies driving this change including privacy controls, data transparency and integration of real time context w...
Oct. 12, 2015 12:00 PM EDT Reads: 301