|By Java News Desk||
|June 18, 2004 12:00 AM EDT||
On Monday we published an article about Keith Lea's one-man attempt to take the benchmark code for C++ and Java from the now outdated Great Computer Language Shootout conducted by Doug Bagley in Fall 2001 and run the tests himself. Within 12 hours 40,000 people had read the piece and by the end of the day Bagley's "Shootout" had even been revived as an ongoing Debian Alioth project.
But while the team behind that project cheerfully says on its Web site "Contributions are welcomed for revised implementations, bug fixes, or ideas for new benchmarks," not everyone agrees with this kind of activity.
When Bagley did the original shootout, he said it was "To learn and to have fun," adding that he would continue continue "as long as the fun holds out." This notion of enjoyment has been revived by the Debian Alioth update:
"The project goals have not changed substantially since Doug's original project. This work is continuing so that we all can learn about new languages, compare them in various (possibly meaningless) ways, and most importantly, have some fun!"But many of those who troubled to record their views in the course of the past few days did not recognize benchmarking/microbenchmarking as anything worth doing at all.
Some took issue with Lea's choice of performance speed as the parameter to compare Java and C++. One, Lachlan Stuart, wrote:
"What you must realize is that C++ and Java have much different targets, it's rare that you will encounter a situation where both are equally suitable. No matter what, unless you forget to turn debug compile off, C++ will beat Java in real world situations on the performance front..."
"Try praising something else about Java...like its security, or ease of programming," Stuart continued.
GooberToo concurred. "The more I read the code, it sure is starting to look more and more like an apples and oranges comparison; which is usually what happens when people do Java benchmarks." And Iain too was unhappy: "Aside from perhaps demonstrating that you know Java far better than you know C++, I don't think these tests were a particularly useful exercise."
Others too felt that Lea's relative unfamiliarity with C++ compromised the exercise. "This article is completely useless and only shows the lack of understanding of C++ by the author," wrote Dr Valentin Samko. "This reminds me of a person who clamed that qbasic is faster than C++ because his program which outputs a few million blank lines works faster in qbasic than in C++."
Glen Low queried the shootout's methodology on a number of counts. Here is one:
"The small size of the programs are a definite advantage for Java's runtime optimizer. A run-time optimizer can't spend forever optimizing, but it has access to actual run-time data, AND can specialize its optimization for the specific processor. (G++, and most other C++ compilers, have flags to allow this as well.) Given the small size, a complete analysis of the program is possible in the limited time available, and given the other additional data, I would find it rather worrisome if Java didn't do better. I'm more sceptical with regards to real programs, however. If there really is one small critical loop, Java should win; that's not the case for most of my programs, however."Scott Ellsworth disagreed with those who dismissed Lea's shootout, though. "The point is that many C++ users feel that Java is too slow and uses too much memory. Microbenchmarks like this show that this off the cuff response is as silly as claiming that exceptions cost too much just because cfront compilers had that cost," he wrote.
"I spent seven years doing C++ in a shrink wrap environment, and five doing Java. In my experience with real world apps, Java code gets done faster, works better out of the box, and is easier to maintain. Tricks like custom memory allocators and carefully crafted templates can make faster C++ code, but I reserve those for time critical parts of the program. Where I do not spend some programmer cycles profiling and optimizing, the two environments are pretty close.Patrik Beno issued a challenge. "I suggest that now it's time for C++ experts to optimize C++ code and compilation, run the very same tests again and post the results."
Thus - if Java is producing code reasonably close or ahead in fairly straightforward usage, and the code gets written faster and more portably, then Java is a win for my work. I can always choose to use C++, assembly, or FORTRAN for the time critical routines, and then link in."
"Don't blame Lea, he did his best, now it's your turn, C++ experts," he added.
Perhaps SWagner would be someone who will rise to the challenge in due course. S/he wasn't at all happy with Lea, writing:
"As an experienced C++ developer (and Java as well) I only see that the C++ code is optimized for minimum performance. Especially the methodcall where the class has virtual constructors or destructors which is seldom useful and significantly hurts performance. Just because you can't turn this off in Java does not mean that you have to make it slow in C++.""In my practical experience," continued Wagner, "normal Java code is 1000 times slower [compared] to OPTIMIZED C++. However if you make severe design flaws you can make any program slow. And if you base on a bad benchmark and make it even worse you should better stop any benchmarking you planned for the future."
Somewhat less disgruntled was m, who wrote: "The benchmarks are interesting, but frankly with real applications, I have never experienced Java performance equal to or better than that of C++."
"I have done a number of home-grown benchmarks for XML parsing, and C/C++ (think expat) are 3-9 times faster," m continued. "The difference there is that the server JVM does indeed optimize over a series of many runs. Java certainly allows us to develop faster, and quite often time to market performance is more important than the performance differences in these two (great in my opinion) platforms. They each have specific advantages."
This, not surprisingly, was the essence of quite a few of the comments. "Java is faster for some applications than C++, and for others C++ is faster. It depends on what you want to do with it," said RebelCool.
But Iain's objection was to the choice of tools to compare, to the entire premise of the shootout in other words:
"The comparison [Lea is] trying to make between C++ and Java is not particularly meaningful. At the end of the day, if a VM is faster, then there is nothing to stop you implementing a VM in C++ and running the 'C++ program' within that framework. What times would then be valid? The tools you are comparing are very different.
In addition, the C++ code is seriously sub-optimal. To take one example, the 'matrix.cpp' is definitely not written for speed. A general purpose C function is being used to repeatedly allocate rows, when a single large block of size 'mn' could have been used. For that matter, why is malloc( ) being used at all? (A custom memory manager optimised for small blocks could have been used instead - malloc( ) is slow.)
If you insist on writing simple C, then at least use memset( ) for the zeromatrix( ) function. Fast template matrix libraries exist for C++ - these could have been used instead - the result would have been shorter, clearer and considerably faster. Aside from perhaps demonstrating that you know Java far better than you know C++, I don't think these tests were a particularly useful exercise."
NotZed disagreed with the premise too, writing: "Java works well as a COBOL replacement, a backend application language for boring buisiness apps. That's what it should be benchmarked against. Comparing it to C is like comparing apples and oranges."
Chris countered: "Surely the benchmark is no less meaningful than when it was originally used to show C++ was faster than Java."
And Christopher White commented:
"Thanks for the comparison Keith. I enjoyed reading your commentary.
Many people have stated in response to this article that Java, as everyone knows, is slow... This is certainly not the case. I am team leader of a Java development team. We have six applications in production on a certain open source application server. We have 1200 users of these applications. The applications are load-balanced over two machines (each machine : HP DL380 2*2.8GHz 2Gb RAM). We have on average 2% Cpu utilisation. Whilst this is of course just a subjective view of Java performance, I can say that we certainly do not have the impression that Java is at all slow.
I accept that for memory deallocation C++ can be tailored to the needs of the application at hand so it will be difficult to beat on this score, however one must remember that the just in time compiler compiles code into native machine language and that this compiler is very much optimized on a per platform basis so I don't see why C++ should produce naturally faster compiled code.
Whichever is faster, Java is easily fast enough for most applications and I strongly believe that the overhead in development time incurred by using C++ is rarely justified except in specialized applications such as driver or game coding."
For the moment let's give the last word to SB:
"Java and C++ are different languages, with different advantages/drawbacks, and different philosophies. My experience, from a large company that produces tons of software, is that performance always comes down to the quality of the developers, not the language itself. And we also found out that in today's world, most developers are only average, and this class of developers yields better results with Java than C++."The debate, as they say, will doubtless continue...
|icube 06/29/04 05:47:18 AM EDT|
shootout has a great interest but not between C++ and java but between ocaml and java .... :-))))
be aware & wake up !!!
|microbenchmarks 06/21/04 06:47:50 AM EDT|
Doug Bagley''s original Great Computer Language Shootout was a neat idea: a collection of little benchmarks written in several dozen languages for the purposes of comparing speed, memory usage, and lines of code. He used to say that his favorites of all the languages were those in the ML family, and in particular Ocaml.
|Robert McGovern 06/20/04 04:33:36 PM EDT|
comp.lang.c++.moderated list at Google Groups. At least be accurate and say on the newsgroup comp.lang.c++.moderated, rather than push the notion that the group is only available via Google groups.
With an estimated 50 billion devices connected to the Internet by 2020, several industries will begin to expand their capabilities for retaining end point data at the edge to better utilize the range of data types and sheer volume of M2M data generated by the Internet of Things. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Don DeLoach, CEO and President of Infobright, will discuss the infrastructures businesses will need to implement to handle this explosion of data by providing specific use cases for filte...
Feb. 14, 2016 03:00 PM EST Reads: 270
SYS-CON Events announced today that Avere Systems, a leading provider of enterprise storage for the hybrid cloud, will exhibit at SYS-CON's 18th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on June 7-9, 2016, at the Javits Center in New York City, NY. Avere delivers a more modern architectural approach to storage that doesn’t require the overprovisioning of storage capacity to achieve performance, overspending on expensive storage media for inactive data or the overbuilding of data centers ...
Feb. 14, 2016 02:30 PM EST Reads: 163
SYS-CON Events announced today that Pythian, a global IT services company specializing in helping companies adopt disruptive technologies to optimize revenue-generating systems, has been named “Bronze Sponsor” of SYS-CON's 18th Cloud Expo, which will take place on June 7-9, 2015 at the Javits Center in New York, New York. Founded in 1997, Pythian is a global IT services company that helps companies compete by adopting disruptive technologies such as cloud, Big Data, advanced analytics, and DevO...
Feb. 14, 2016 02:30 PM EST Reads: 303
SYS-CON Events announced today that Interoute, owner-operator of one of Europe's largest networks and a global cloud services platform, has been named “Bronze Sponsor” of SYS-CON's 18th Cloud Expo, which will take place on June 7-9, 2015 at the Javits Center in New York, New York. Interoute is the owner-operator of one of Europe's largest networks and a global cloud services platform which encompasses 12 data centers, 14 virtual data centers and 31 colocation centers, with connections to 195 ad...
Feb. 14, 2016 01:00 PM EST Reads: 463
Join us at Cloud Expo | @ThingsExpo 2016 – June 7-9 at the Javits Center in New York City and November 1-3 at the Santa Clara Convention Center in Santa Clara, CA – and deliver your unique message in a way that is striking and unforgettable by taking advantage of SYS-CON's unmatched high-impact, result-driven event / media packages.
Feb. 14, 2016 01:00 PM EST Reads: 126
SYS-CON Events announced today that Alert Logic, Inc., the leading provider of Security-as-a-Service solutions for the cloud, will exhibit at SYS-CON's 18th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on June 7-9, 2016, at the Javits Center in New York City, NY. Alert Logic, Inc., provides Security-as-a-Service for on-premises, cloud, and hybrid infrastructures, delivering deep security insight and continuous protection for customers at a lower cost than traditional security solutions. Ful...
Feb. 14, 2016 12:15 PM EST Reads: 482
SYS-CON Events announced today that Men & Mice, the leading global provider of DNS, DHCP and IP address management overlay solutions, will exhibit at SYS-CON's 18th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on June 7-9, 2016, at the Javits Center in New York City, NY. The Men & Mice Suite overlay solution is already known for its powerful application in heterogeneous operating environments, enabling enterprises to scale without fuss. Building on a solid range of diverse platform support,...
Feb. 14, 2016 12:00 PM EST Reads: 295
SYS-CON Events announced today that iDevices®, the preeminent brand in the connected home industry, will exhibit at SYS-CON's 18th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on June 7-9, 2016, at the Javits Center in New York City, NY. iDevices, the preeminent brand in the connected home industry, has a growing line of HomeKit-enabled products available at the largest retailers worldwide. Through the “Designed with iDevices” co-development program and its custom-built IoT Cloud Infrastruc...
Feb. 14, 2016 12:00 PM EST Reads: 169
Fortunately, meaningful and tangible business cases for IoT are plentiful in a broad array of industries and vertical markets. These range from simple warranty cost reduction for capital intensive assets, to minimizing downtime for vital business tools, to creating feedback loops improving product design, to improving and enhancing enterprise customer experiences. All of these business cases, which will be briefly explored in this session, hinge on cost effectively extracting relevant data from ...
Feb. 14, 2016 11:45 AM EST Reads: 172
Companies can harness IoT and predictive analytics to sustain business continuity; predict and manage site performance during emergencies; minimize expensive reactive maintenance; and forecast equipment and maintenance budgets and expenditures. Providing cost-effective, uninterrupted service is challenging, particularly for organizations with geographically dispersed operations.
Feb. 14, 2016 10:00 AM EST Reads: 108
As enterprises work to take advantage of Big Data technologies, they frequently become distracted by product-level decisions. In most new Big Data builds this approach is completely counter-productive: it presupposes tools that may not be a fit for development teams, forces IT to take on the burden of evaluating and maintaining unfamiliar technology, and represents a major up-front expense. In his session at @BigDataExpo at @ThingsExpo, Andrew Warfield, CTO and Co-Founder of Coho Data, will dis...
Feb. 14, 2016 10:00 AM EST Reads: 240
The Quantified Economy represents the total global addressable market (TAM) for IoT that, according to a recent IDC report, will grow to an unprecedented $1.3 trillion by 2019. With this the third wave of the Internet-global proliferation of connected devices, appliances and sensors is poised to take off in 2016. In his session at @ThingsExpo, David McLauchlan, CEO and co-founder of Buddy Platform, will discuss how the ability to access and analyze the massive volume of streaming data from mil...
Feb. 14, 2016 09:00 AM EST Reads: 109
WebSocket is effectively a persistent and fat pipe that is compatible with a standard web infrastructure; a "TCP for the Web." If you think of WebSocket in this light, there are other more hugely interesting applications of WebSocket than just simply sending data to a browser. In his session at 18th Cloud Expo, Frank Greco, Director of Technology for Kaazing Corporation, will compare other modern web connectivity methods such as HTTP/2, HTTP Streaming, Server-Sent Events and new W3C event APIs ...
Feb. 14, 2016 08:30 AM EST
SYS-CON Events announced today that FalconStor Software® Inc., a 15-year innovator of software-defined storage solutions, will exhibit at SYS-CON's 18th International Cloud Expo®, which will take place on June 7-9, 2016, at the Javits Center in New York City, NY. FalconStor Software®, Inc. (NASDAQ: FALC) is a leading software-defined storage company offering a converged, hardware-agnostic, software-defined storage and data services platform. Its flagship solution FreeStor®, utilizes a horizonta...
Feb. 14, 2016 07:30 AM EST
Silver Spring Networks, Inc. (NYSE: SSNI) extended its Internet of Things technology platform with performance enhancements to Gen5 – its fifth generation critical infrastructure networking platform. Already delivering nearly 23 million devices on five continents as one of the leading networking providers in the market, Silver Spring announced it is doubling the maximum speed of its Gen5 network to up to 2.4 Mbps, increasing computational performance by 10x, supporting simultaneous mesh communic...
Feb. 14, 2016 05:00 AM EST
The cloud promises new levels of agility and cost-savings for Big Data, data warehousing and analytics. But it’s challenging to understand all the options – from IaaS and PaaS to newer services like HaaS (Hadoop as a Service) and BDaaS (Big Data as a Service). In her session at @BigDataExpo at @ThingsExpo, Hannah Smalltree, a director at Cazena, will provide an educational overview of emerging “as-a-service” options for Big Data in the cloud. This is critical background for IT and data profes...
Feb. 14, 2016 04:00 AM EST Reads: 268
Eighty percent of a data scientist’s time is spent gathering and cleaning up data, and 80% of all data is unstructured and almost never analyzed. Cognitive computing, in combination with Big Data, is changing the equation by creating data reservoirs and using natural language processing to enable analysis of unstructured data sources. This is impacting every aspect of the analytics profession from how data is mined (and by whom) to how it is delivered. This is not some futuristic vision: it's ha...
Feb. 14, 2016 03:45 AM EST Reads: 485
With the Apple Watch making its way onto wrists all over the world, it’s only a matter of time before it becomes a staple in the workplace. In fact, Forrester reported that 68 percent of technology and business decision-makers characterize wearables as a top priority for 2015. Recognizing their business value early on, FinancialForce.com was the first to bring ERP to wearables, helping streamline communication across front and back office functions. In his session at @ThingsExpo, Kevin Roberts...
Feb. 14, 2016 02:00 AM EST Reads: 449
Cognitive Computing is becoming the foundation for a new generation of solutions that have the potential to transform business. Unlike traditional approaches to building solutions, a cognitive computing approach allows the data to help determine the way applications are designed. This contrasts with conventional software development that begins with defining logic based on the current way a business operates. In her session at 18th Cloud Expo, Judith S. Hurwitz, President and CEO of Hurwitz & ...
Feb. 13, 2016 11:15 PM EST Reads: 324
One of the bewildering things about DevOps is integrating the massive toolchain including the dozens of new tools that seem to crop up every year. Part of DevOps is Continuous Delivery and having a complex toolchain can add additional integration and setup to your developer environment. In his session at @DevOpsSummit at 18th Cloud Expo, Miko Matsumura, Chief Marketing Officer of Gradle Inc., will discuss which tools to use in a developer stack, how to provision the toolchain to minimize onboa...
Feb. 13, 2016 08:00 PM EST Reads: 161